Entrepreneur - Interview with Julie Noble, author of “Talli’s Secret”

My article “The Writer as Entreprenuer” is published this month by Mslexia, the UK literary journal for women writers. Researching the article, I interviewed three self-published authors, Preethi Nair, Mark Blayney and Julie Noble as well as former Managing Buyer at Waterstone’s, the UK book chain, now Commercial Director of The Friday Project, the UK publisher of books derived from blogs. They shared with me masses of invaluable information about the process of self-publishing as well generously telling me their personal stories.

Mslexia is a fantastic quarterly journal for women writers, with news about what’s happening in the UK publishing industry and topical features which are hugely relevant to all writers and women writers in particular. It cost just over £18 for an annual subscription if you are in the UK and is really worth that minimal cost. It is published in hard copy and will be posted to you once a quarter. I was a subscriber for years before they invited me to write the Entrepreneur article and it really kept me abreast of all the hot issues for writers in an in-depth and informed way.

I am thrilled to be able to offer readers and writers alike, this additional resource, in conjunction with Mslexia - the full text of the email interviews with Mark, Julie and Scott as well as a podcast of my telephone interview with Preethi are now available on Fusion View to co-incide with the publication of my article in the magazine - see the category in the sidebar marked “Writer as Entreprenuer”. All materials are published here with the agreement of Mslexia and my interviewees.

I will be posting up these resources over the course of this week:

Today, 10 July - Interview with Julie Noble, author of Talli’s Secret, see below
Wed 11 July - Interview with Scott Pack, ex-Managing Buyer at Waterstone’s and now Commercial Director of The Friday Project
Thurs 12 July - Interview with Mark Blayney, author of Two Kinds of Silence
Fri 13 July - Podcast of my telephone interview with Preethi Nair, author of Gypsy Masala

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The following is my email interview with Julie Noble, author of “Talli’s Secret”, a story about Cassie, a girl with dyspraxia and dyslexia struggling with family and school life. On a school trip to Haworth Parsonage, the home of the Brontes, a strange figure on the stairs calling herself Talli takes a mysterious interest in Cassie. Julie studied psychology and literature and Lancaster University and has worked on television programmes such as “Heartbeat” and “The Royal”. Part of the inspiration for “Talli’s Secret”, Julie’s first book, came from the fact that one of her three children, her son Jonathan, struggles everyday with dyspraxia and dyslexia.

Incidentally, it’s Julie’s birthday today as well - so Happy Birthday to you, Julie!

# Why did you self-publish?

All the usual reasons: impossibility of getting contracts with either an agent or publisher despite good recommendations, prize-winning work and determination. I have had the manuscripts I sent out returned, often unopened or by return with standard rejection letters pushed in: “our lists are full etc; limited number of books being published”, etc then two people in my area (Both men) self-published the year before I did; one has since gone on to gain acclaim, fame and fortune (GP Taylor) the other made enough locally to create a reputation as an author. I bought copies of both their books, also aimed at children, as my first book was, and I had to recognise that my languishing manuscript was at least as good as theirs, if not better. To their credit, they were both encouraging, though GP Taylor much more so, even before his reputation really took off, and he kindly allowed me to use his recommendation on the back of my blurb.

# How did you go about self-publishing your novel? Did you use print on demand? If not, where did you store all the stock?

See Advice for how I researched which publisher to use;
We had all 3,000 books delivered here, took the dining table out, and filled the front room with boxes! Getting the dining table back was a real achievement. Now we just have a few boxes left under the stairs, and that’s because I had to stop marketing to deal with family issues last year, otherwise they’d all have been long gone.

# How much did you spend? (If you are prepared to say…)

Several thousand pounds. We had to remortgage the house to do it….

# How did you get the book into bookshops? (I’m particularly interested in this bit as it seems to require strong sales skills, persistence and stamina/ resilience that many writers would shy away from)

(SEE ADVICE points 9 10 15 20 for practical and note responding to “qualities/skills” question for reaction from booksellers)

You’re right about the tough stuff, and it’s not always easy, which is why I didn’t get all the books sold when my family life became very difficult, but really if you’ve got something you believe in, and you can convince people, perhaps by offering a free inspection copy as we did, and they see how good it is, then you’re in; you don’t need to treat them as the enemy because after all, deep down, they want the same as you - they want to sell the books!

# What marketing did you do?

Everything possible: See advice section below for more details

# Do you have a background in business? What is your day job?

Mother of 3 (with another on the way). I have an excellent grasp of budgeting, bringing up children on a limited income, balancing what needs to be paid right now with what can wait, etc, and I worked in a bank, though I hated the sales I liked problem solving. Also I was a self-employed childminder when the children were small.
I don’t think you need a business mind or background, if you can manage a household budget, chop and change credit cards to keep on the interest free, that sort of thing, you can do it!

# Do you consider your writing career as a business/ profession? What activities do you pursue to maintain your career as a writer? eg teaching creative writing etc.; networking

Yes I absolutely consider my writing career as a profession although many times it seemed to be labour of love rather than providing financial rewards! I remind myself that once the books I am currently writing and revising eventually get published they will build my reputation and give recompense to the time spent on them. As with all Arts Careers you are not drawn into writing because of the possibility of financial gain, but rather because of the impossibility of doing anything else! I love writing - it is as necessary to me as breathing and it helps me make sense of the world - and every time I get another job offered such as teaching a poetry workshop or running a drama workshop for either adults or children, I am grateful that I am able to do something that I enjoy so much and get paid for it. At the moment I am encouraging a group of 11 year-olds to finish their first book in a six-month project with two schools in the area and when the Heads came to see me begin the first workshop it was clear that I was going to enjoy it as much as the children did! This enthusiasm also invigorates other areas of my life. I have given talks to parent groups about the aspects of my book as relating to my son’s learning difficulties and I have been able to offer encouragement to many parents and children who are facing the same things my son and I have faced, this in itself is an inspiration to keep writing especially when you meet people who have been affected by reading your work and inspired to begin their own! I maintain a professional approach to my writing setting aside particular hours to work and refusing to take long coffee breaks, watch daytime TV or go shopping with friends when it is my work time, and this discipline helps other people to recognise that I am actually working.

# What qualities do you think you discovered in yourself during this experience? If you have a background in business, do you think that helped you handle the business aspects of self-publishing? If not, what other skills did you bring to the experience?

My biggest skill in dealing with bookshops was quiet determination laden with humility because I suspect they have to deal with a lot of people who think they’re going to be “the next big thing”. When I went in with a self-published novel and they started out to rubbish them I would just quietly and determinedly show them my book, talk about it, and without being arrogant let them see how good it was. I found that quiet and polite determination did very well - one columnist reviewer once e-mailed to say he’d never met any one so persistent and that I was just this side of annoying, but he published a grudging but good review and later admitted that he wanted to publish himself but was not getting anywhere; he still keeps in touch from time to time, so I can’t have been that bad!

# What qualities and skills do you think a writer needs to have to become their own publisher, publicist, sales rep and distributor? Also, what qualities and skills would a writer need to maintain their career as a writer apart from just writing?

The following should cover all qualities and skills for everything….

While recognising you are a writer who can work alone for long periods and single-handedly create complicated plots, and become totally involved in the characters within, you must also be outgoing, approachable, obliging, hard working and effervescent when called on to be so (meeting public and teaching, book signings, media appearances etc). You must be diplomatic and a good sales negotiator (bookshops, esp big wholesalers like Gardners) and someone who can make contacts with people in the media and maintained them by remembering to ask about them and by forming a proper relationship. You need to be patient yet single-minded in pursuit of your writing career while admitting that some improvements can always be made (think Proust). Think that you may well have to bear criticism and possible jealous reactions if you have any success whatsoever, or if you have written anything worthwhile, or even if you haven’t, but you’ve tried. You have to prepare to be competitive and to be passed over time and time again for “the next big thing,” knowing full well that however good you are it is unlikely it will ever be you! You have to believe in yourself –remember Emily Dickinson writing and putting away but still producing the best she could despite knowing that she would never see the success in her own lifetime. You have to cope with rejection letters from editors who have never read a word you have written apart from the greeting ‘Dear Sir or Madam’. You have to maintain a sense of purpose and finally you have to believe despite masses of evidence to the contrary (in the thousands of words published every year) that you have a message that the world needs to hear! If you can do all this you can successfully self publish whatever you choose to write.

# What returns did you make on your investment (financial or otherwise)?

Okay, I’ll be honest, financially it’s not a big money spinner, unless you hit jackpot and get taken on by someone else, but I did make most of the outlay back, in dribs and drabs, though as I would not take into account distribution/marketing and publicity costs, probably not, but we got about £500 for the two charities, and I wasn’t in debt at the end of it!
Otherwise the returns were huge!

I wanted to raise awareness of dyspraxia and dyslexia because of the experiences of my son and the publication of this book did have an enormous effect on his education because I gave one to his school and the teachers that read it were so impressed that they bought copies of it for each other and took far more of an interest in Jonathon’s problems. Many said it was the first time they had been able to see the conditions from the child’s point of view, and very many other teachers have since been in touch to say it is affected them and their pupils. I have been told that it has frequently been read out in class. Most people, old and young, could identify with my heroine Cassie’s difficulties and remembered somebody to be like that. I have also had very many phone calls and letters from people with dyspraxia or dyslexia, or members of their families, who had suffered and found comfort from this book; also people who had experienced bereavement found it accurate and useful. Many readers got in touch to tell me how this book made them cry (usually in the same part that made me cry when I wrote and revised it!) A really wonderful return was when I got a huge folder of work from a school in Derby, from a class who had done an entire project on Talli’s Secret, lasting weeks. The children had drawn pictures of my characters, made cartoons with their likes and dislikes, and imagined monologues. To receive this response to the world I had created was a great gift. I also had excellent reviews from such eminent organisations as the Bronte Society, the Dyslexia Institute and the Dyspraxia Foundation, as well as reaching the Whitbread Book Awards long list (though I was told afterwards self published books may be subject to the snobbery/isolation factor, which may have been a reason for it not to get any further, though I never followed it up because the same day as that news arrived my family life was completely turned inside out and I had to put the book business on hold while I saved my children, and myself.)
The random quotes and e-mails from complete strangers on amazon.com gave me another boost, and the genuine enjoyment of my story by all the readers I have heard from (and as a percentage of responses against sales I would guess I’ve got a higher rate than some of the greats!) gave me a return on my investment in the form of something that money could never buy - it made me realise that I really was an author, because my work reached other people and touched them, my characters, plucked from my imagination, lived for other people, and that knowledge has changed my writing and given me more confidence to declare myself a writer. Also, I received a payment from the PLR for my book’s library loans, which made me immensely proud. I am more fulfilled by my writing than anything else I’ve ever done, it makes me believe in myself, which as a woman, and especially one who has done a lot of childcare, (which for some reason demeans in this society, we don’t revere motherhood at all), is a necessary part of developing as an author.

# Do you see a trend towards self-publishing?

Yes; more and more publishers want guaranteed returns and so are aiming at Blockbusting bestsellers, often celebrity/TV based or part of an established genre. We need the entrepreneurs and adventurers to ensure that writing develops and expands, especially for women. It’s still harder to break into publishing: we shouldn’t sell ourselves short.

# What would you say to those who still have a snobbery around self-publishing - ie who mistake it for vanity publishing?

(see notes in response to q about skills/qualities for bookseller reactions)

I’m afraid its difficult because so much of the work self-published would benefit from an editor’s eye – I know mine would have done, but necessity is the mother of invention, so in the event I had to ask friends and family to help, where a professional would have made other comments I’m sure. Yet the reviews I received, even from Professional publications recognised the quality of my writing regardless, and it has been exceptionally well received. My book won one prize (Writing Magazine/David St John Thomas self-publishing Award) and was longlisted for the Whitbread, therefore its quality should not be dismissed. I am not alone, and the increasing success of self-published works has got to make a difference, and professional production will help that. Most of the ‘dross’ produced by the vanity press disappears without much of a fuss, whereas a well-written book properly presented, marketed and distributed can do better than some of the published works from ‘proper’ publishers!

ADVICE SECTION

# What is your advice to writers who may be thinking of self-publishing?

Go for it-but do it well! Here are some practical points:

1) Research your market carefully when you are revising your novel and aim to match the standard of the genre you are writing in:
look at covers/blurb/length and ask –honestly- how do you compare to the professionals?

2) Spend some time looking at self-publishing publishers rather than vanity press or basic printers; ask for a sample of a published book; feel free to ask questions about ISBN, the British Library requirements etc as well as text style/paper quality and cover design. A good publisher will be able to answer all your questions.

3) Think about what angle to use to pitch the book to the news agencies, and make first contacts with reporters e.g. Talli’s Secret is raising the profile of, and money for, the Dyslexia Institute and the Dyspraxia Foundation, reporters were interested in learning more about both conditions, but also about the fact that we remortgaged the house to pay for the publishing! Offer free copies for competition prizes etc it’s an excellent form of advertising!

4) Get a recommendation for the back of the book - from someone whose opinion would be listened to! It is particularly valuable for getting your book into bookshops, as some buyers are sceptical about self publishing. We were lucky that Graham Taylor sent us: “this is one of the best books I have ever read. It keeps you turning the pages from start to finish. I was lost in Talli’s world and didn’t want to come back.’ GP Taylor Author of the New York Times best-sellers

5) Plan the book launch,
i)try to tie in with local cultural/historical events e.g Talli’s Secret has the Brontës in it, so we opted to launch it at the Robin Hood’s Bay Victorian Weekend.
ii)draw prospective book buyers in with a gimmick, preferably something free! It needn’t be expensive- we had a calligraphy workshop with ‘Victorian’ bookmarks made by staining cardboard with tea!

6) Talk to people about the book Is anybody experienced or knowledgeable? Especially useful for the local contacts/ networking information you need.

7) Design and order flyers: bookshops like them and they also used for giving people to put up at events/ on noticeboards etc,

8) Prepare press releases- find personalised angles for each approach

9) Search for suitable outlets
i) the internet (if not from home use the library which is often cheaper
ii) Yellow Pages/ telephone directories - libraries stock these for various areas.

10) Approach Book Shops Independent bookshops can be hesitant with self-published books, offer to send a sample, and also guarantee that the books are only being provided on a sale or return (SOR) basis. Get contact details for the major book buyers for the chains well in advance. Be ready with e-mail confirmations of all the details e.g. the publisher, the subject, the price, market it was aimed at, references etc

11) Set up a website Look at info in Mslexia and book websites to get ideas, i.e: www.tallissecret.com. If you’re not a computer wizard, don’t worry, find one in your contacts.

12) Arrange a post office box - more professional when giving out the business address on the radio etc.

13) Go online and register on websites where you can post information ie “Friends Reunited”, University alumni news, sites relative to the content of your book.

14) Find regional literary newsletters/arts listings magazines. These types of publications are very useful for getting your name known, e.g The Yorkshire Word Editor likes to include information about self-published books and is very encouraging, asking me to do the ‘masthead’.

15) Design/print duplicated customer record sheets your contact details/ customer’s information/number of books taken/ commission rate.

16) Launch Book with media coverage, e.g radio/tv,

The launch serves several purposes:
Proves that self-publishing is a viable option
Tells the world about the book via media coverage/ social networking
Sells books!

17) Address all the envelopes ready for sample books that need to be sent asap

18) Enjoy the achievement - and concentrate on getting the books out there!

19)make sure plenty of people know about it, enlist family and friends to put posters up/ radio- event guides or interviews/ television/ newspaper everything you can think of. Take photographs to put on website/ send to media etc

20) Deliver the books to the outlets along with customer record sheets - both sign and keep a copy, and flyers. Don’t forget the library!

21) Send out review copies to newspapers/magazines/radio or tv programmes that you

i) think would be interested
ii) are a fan of
iii) never heard of till you started all this!
Get contact names by telephoning or emailing first, so that the book receives a more favourable impression when it lands on somebody’s desk.

22) Scour pages of Mslexia/ magazines/ websites for competitions you can enter. Fun to try and if you win- more media coverage!

23) Who else is there? Approach schools, Writer’s Groups, book groups, bookshops for book signings, Writer in residence in a business (the more unusual the better, from a media point of view), meet the author, workshops with drama or writing?

24) Keep optimistic and keep going! Obviously, the more effort you put in, the more you learn, the greater your chance of success!

# Anything else you’d like to share about your experiences/ about being a writer that would be useful for other writers, especially women writers to hear about.

Speaking from personal experience I believe that my ability to write and convey a range of emotions and trap them into words has saved my sanity, particularly over the last 15 months. As many writers have discovered (esp. the Brontes) the ability to escape into another world can mean the difference between accepting a difficult reality and being oppressed by it, or revelling in a world where you are in charge to a certain extent, for if like me your books are character-driven rather than plot-driven you’ll find you can be as little in charge in your literary existence as in your real-life!

As a woman and mother of three (and soon four) children I have found the greatest hindrance to my work is my own attitude towards it. So often I’d constantly place the children’s needs, wants and desires (including a definite desire not have to do any domestic chores) above my need to write, but unfortunately it was instilled into me at an early age that mothers must be self sacrificing to the point of martyrdom. This does not make any one happy nor is it good for the children to be given such an example. This is why it is very important to maintain a very business like approach to your work, especially if you’re a mother with the bulk of the domestic arrangements on your own shoulders. If you tell yourself, your children and everyone else that what you’re doing is a ‘proper’ job, you can carve out writing time without feeling guilty that most of the rooms in their house haven’t been dusted since Christmas and the children’s clothes need ironing (you just drape them on a hanger and shove them in the wardrobe). Then you have to recognise that you need to set aside time not just for writing a book but for thinking through and studying all the good works such as the classics, or rediscovering little known women authors and examining texts to see what works for certain writers and what doesn’t.

If you can act business like about your writing (and convincing yourself can be as hard as convincing everyone else) you’re most of the way there, which is why self-publishing Talli’s Secret was such a success for me.

I know there are plenty of stories about people who have not begun writing until late in life and still make a terrific success of it and though we all can find comfort in this while we wait for recognition in the meantime don’t give up trying! Write to the best of your ability, keep learning and keep sending things out and you can do it, I bet you!

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To find out more about Julie and “Talli’s Secret”, go to www.tallissecret.com

To find out more about Mslexia, go to www.mslexia.co.uk